The Ugly Truth About PLM-ERP Monkey Volleyball

An interesting take on enterprise applications, Oleg. I wonder if our different views on data vs. process come from my background with ERP and supply chain systems. Data is important, but it is the planning and processing of the data (putting a price on a sales order with appropriate discounts or doing constraint-based planning on a production line) that stands out to me. Yes, those processes require and product data. But they are processes. CAD, on the other hand, is what creates the data in engineering (among other authoring tools) where PDM is primarily focused on managing the data. PLM, to me, has PDM / data management at the core but the bigger benefits come from the planning and processing functionality.
Perhaps it is that difference in backgrounds that provides the different perspectives? Data in ERP is a means to an end. Data in PDM is the core concern.
After all this time, I may be starting to understand from your perspective.
As I said to Chris yesterday, “thanks for making me think.”
Best,
Jim

Jim, For me the difference between data and processes are always was with questions who come first? Sort of eggs vs. chicken, but a little different :).. Can “data” exist without process? My answer is yes! Can “process” exist without data? The answer is no, because data is the fundamental prerequisite to the processes. You need to have data to define processes – all data to be used for rules, conditions, alerts, decision points… I think, enterprise apps – ERP, SCM and later PLM were moved to talk about processes since it is clearer and explainable to enterprise people, especially if you are on the C-level. However, in the current state of enterprise software, the ownership on data is they key to decide how successfully you can run your product. CAD, ERP, Mail/Exchange/Lotus systems are own data. In the companies where PLM keeps fundamental pieces of product information (i.e. Part, BOM) is very successful. Thank you for your great comments and contribution! Best, Oleg

Fun conversation! Here is what I find funny. Many people draw circles to represent ERP, CRM, PLM SCM platforms and show them intersecting to open their presentations. You can tell where they work by the size of the circles. If they are engineers the PLM circle is big, others small. IT the ERP circle, sales the CRM circle. I think it’s really funny! My thinking is that they all play a critical role and all of them house process workflow and data critical to the company. The trick is to make sure you have one source of entry or a clear point of transfer such as release. Two points of entry is a recipe for bad data! So no one system really is above the others in a larger company.
If I have to weigh in here and not sit the fence as far as the chicken and egg go…… if you don’t have a item to order than what are you ordering? 🙂

OK I’m a PLM bigot

Good weekend folks!

ERP is processes. The reason ERP has data is to support processes. The customer master? To support orders and account receivable. The vendor master? To support purchasing and accounts payable. The item? To support just about everything. But the process comes first, and the data is used to support it. With PDM, it was a way to store data. The data was the purpose, not the enabler. Then, process built up around it. Totally different in my opinion.

David, thanks for the laugh. In the analyst community we call that the “center of the universe slide.” I would have PLM companies come in with a picture that has PLM the size of a bowling ball and SAP the size of a pea. Some of the smartest vendors I know have brought in a slide like that. Their solution (PLM, or something much smaller) right in the center and huge. Then, the other solutions are trivialized. They lack credibility. I want to have a niche vendor come to me with SAP the size of a bowling ball, twenty other applications on the slide, with theirs being the smallest and saying “see this tiny little bit over here? That’s us.”

Hey wait, this isn’t my blog! Back to you Oleg. 🙂

Krishna, Thanks for your support and energy :)!! Best, Oleg.

Jim, I understand your point. So, if I will take it forward, ERP needs to own data to manage processes more effectively. As opposite, when PLM has no control for Item Master, the ability to drive processes that require this data will be somewhat problematic. With regards to PDM- I think most of the processes in the engineering weren’t formal and were driven by engineers, which only cared where to store data. This is how PDM was originally born. Engineering looked for electronic storage for documents, and they found it in the form of early EDM/PDM system. Best, Oleg

David, nice to see how you joggling by data/process metaphor all the time. Certainly, organizations understand “process” metaphor better. Most of the top enterprise people are not going to “data resolution” level. This is too granular for them. They assume, if the process is right, then result will be good. However, what if data processes are taking into account was wrong…??? Hm… Time to think, in my view. Best, Oleg

Jim, Thanks for made me think! I finally got you :)… From your standpoint, in an organization, everything is created and consumed by processes. It seems to me very funny. At least, now I can take it very far. Let me give you an example. When engineer extracts BOM from CAD and put it in the bunch of Excel files on the server, this is called Release process. When somebody else, make a change in this Excel file and sending mail to change model and update drawings, this is a Change Process. Is it the way “process bigots” see the world? Best, Oleg

This has been a good thread to read thank to Jim and Oleg for this.

I agree with Jim’s points on this in his post from this am. All data is associated with a process even if it is a very simple manual one. If you don’t “see” the process then you can easily create data that is useless to the company. Which data is core to the company operations needs to be carefully identified and then traced back and controlled through a process. If you work for a regulated company than certain data has to be very tightly generated and controlled through configuration management processes.

So have a great day! I think we would all get along well if we had the pleasure to meet! We all have the same crazy passion for this plain topic to the average human!

David, Thanks for joining our discussion and your excellent comments! I’m now thinking how to take us to the next level of data-process discussion. Stay tuned :). And you are absolutely right, we can think how to get together to discuss one day. Best, Oleg

David, Thank you for your insight! I agree with you- both systems cover the specific niche, and you figured it pretty well.
However, it becomes complex in a modern environment when product design and manufacturing are crossing their paths and requires some interplay. Engineering and Manufacturing environments cannot live in separate worlds behind the wall. But, when you try to create an integrated environment, you learn very fast, that all players are trying to keep data close to their own storages. In my view, companies will be looking for more options to streamline processes between design and manufacturing. For the moment, I don’t see any interest from PLM and ERP vendors to invest into openness. Best, Oleg

At Peter,
Your post prompted several thoughts…
(1) The largest PLM vendors are also CAD vendors and they have never (!!) made it easy for others to interface with their products. Some say these vendors need the flexibility to evolve their CAD products to meet new challenges while others claim the CAD vendors are just unwilling (or even “unable”) to provide stable interfaces that others could use. Regardless of the rationale, the lack of open, stable APIs that would allow any PLM (or even ERP) system to correctly store, manage, and manipulate the artifacts of the most prevalent CAD systems is obvious.
(2) Even if the CAD system interfaces were “open enough” (whatever that means), there are still problems with trying to exchange data between different PLM systems — due to data model differences, a lack of consistency between “relationship” definitions, and many other aspects. And while some people advocate data exchange using messaging protocols or even industry-standard XML data files — these approaches were tried decades ago by CAD vendors using tools such as IGES and STEP — and the results for these much simpler data structures were NOT encouraging.
(3) As I have posted elsewhere, I believe that some products require 3 different products. PLM to handle the design process, ERP to handle the manufacturing process, and ARM to handle the creation of the software that “intelligent” devices require more and more frequently. And although I have simplified the model a bit — for ease of discussion — it seems clear to me that neither PLM or ERP systems have been designed to accommodate a multitude of software files (with their own versions and change history) that will eventually result in one or more software modules that are embedded in the finished hardware product.

Peter,
About data: I think, data is coming from everywhere. If you will come to an average company, you can find lots of data that are not in use because of various reasons (legacy apps and systems, no access, etc.). I agree, if you can transform data into something meaningful, it becomes an information.
About openness: There is an obvious interest in standards and related activities. But, I’m continuously stating, that in the enterprise world, the standards like toothbrushes. Everybody wants them, but nobody wants to use somebody else toothbrushes :). So, I’m not surprising big vendors are trying to create standards and invest into this activity. But, they are only interested in their own standards. Some of them are more successful and some of them not. I think all, what was done in the space of standards was done only under pressure of specific business needs. So, the opportunity is to identify these needs and bring vendors to agreements. However, this is a very costly process, in my view.
Thanks for your comments! Great discussion!
Best, Oleg

Interesting read.
Any best practices on planning BOM & the transfer to erp? Any thoughts on what aerospace industries look for in a plm app with resp to planning BOM?

Arun, Thank you for your comment! This question is beyond something I can answer in few lines. The communication between engineering and manufacturing is very specific. What is very important to see is that Engineering/PLM is mostly revision management and ERP is mostly “effectivity” managed. Since all aerospace products are using Serial effectivity, you can think about how engineering is managing manufacturing and building relationships and business rules related to serial effectivities. It can be different, if you are talking about supply chain. Best, Oleg